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christoforo
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2008, 03:58:17 PM » |
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what would it sound like with an american v8 and sport 328 exhaust. will it still have a muscle car sound or a different sound.
No it will still sound like a truck. that's not cool either
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 06:45:24 PM by FunnyWheels »
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TOMMYTREETRUNK
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2008, 05:34:34 PM » |
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i dont believe sound is too important. 20% of ferraris have aftermarket exhaust and dont sound the same
Which only proves the point. The 20% do sound different from OEM and maybe one another... but they all have a V8 sound and are not questioned as to whether or not they're real. TTT Just to be clear, an italian v8 and an american v8 sound nothing alike and never practically will. Adding an italian v8 is not practical. So I guess I don't get your point. Funnywheels stated several times the aspects of drivetrain design that account for the differences. I do not think he has "pinched pennies" on anything involving his kit car and I'm sure his exhaust will sound great. I never said use an American V8... Audi, BMW, Toyota, etc all make V8's do due diligence and find which engine comes closest in size and sound. Then add the correct combo in the exhaust parts and you'll get very close if not dead on. These engineers are not magicians that wont give up their trade secrets. If they can do it so can we. My thoughts are an exhaust sound is a complex combination of pulse's, load rpm etc .... So to get the sound from a 4cyl Mr2, 6 cyl Peugot/Fiero engine to match a V8 ferari engine is just not going to happen.
HOWEVER what i think is possible as memtioned by TT is to tune the exhaust. At some point in the rpm range you may come close to a sound which is emitted by an F engine at ONE point in its operating range.
Also exhaust butterfly valves as used on F exhausts can change the tone by different gas routes through the exhaust system. I've done this on my toyota and it reduces the low freq drone at low rpm but then allows near full flow at higher rpm.
nick200, Can you PM me on how you did this? I would like to do this with a BMW V12 to get the Murci sound. Thanks TTT I stand by my initial comments. It can't be done.
I have a car with a 3800 V6, No cats running an expansion muffler and silencers in the exhaust tips. I don't pull 9,000 rpm, my engine tops out at 6,300 rpm. It has a heavy flywheel so it doesn't rev fast, it is not a DOHC motor with a flat plane crank, it does not have un silenced individual intake ports and injectors, it doesn't have equal length headers. I am however in the process of adding a T04b turbo with all the goodies to get it up to 409 HP. It will whoosh and snarl at other cars but it is still not going to sound like a Ferrari. I would if I could but without a Ferrari drive train I am just out of luck. Don't get me wrong. The Ferrari OEM mufflers make your car sound like it is not an MR2 or Fiero, just not a Ferrari. The one I had on my car in the past weighed a ton, that's why I went for a custom solution...just like the Ferrari guys do to get rid of un-necessary weight.
Just my thought on the topic.
Dave
Funnywheels, Unless you don't want the F car sound, why would you use a V6 in your build? I really can't understand why so many builders will spend so much money on a kit to get it to look like a twin sister to the OEM, then pitch pennies at the heart of your master piece. If a V8 will give a closer OEM tone, why not start with a V8, instead of selling yourself short with anything less? The sound is a very important component of the overall build... please don't neglect it. TTT The size of the engine means absolutely nothing. I would say that the least accurate kitcar sound comes from the BMW V12. The only identical sound to a Lamborghini is a tiny 4 cylinder sport motorcycle engine. A 4 cylinder Mr2 engine is a lot closer to the Lamborghini then a Bmw V12. The closest car engine I have heard that sounds like the genuine is the Nissan 6 cylinder that is used in the 350z/g35. With a proper exhaust that thing sounds pretty close. I did a ton of research about this because this is very important to me, and I still have not decided what I am going to do. The size and configuration does matter... The only reason the V12 seems to sound the least accurate to you is simply because you have not come across anyone that has done it right as of yet. The guys that have used the V12 didn't complete the exhaust system conversion. They may use the Lambo muffler but not the pipes, the headers or the cats or vice versa, which makes a big difference. Ask any performance muffler shop how to tune your exhaust to achieve a certain sound and they will give you a multitude of combinations. Do you see how big the Lambo pipes are? Then look at the size of the tail pipes. All the gases that fill the big pipes are forced through the smaller tail pipes and makes a higher pitched sound. If the V12's you researched don't have this set up, then that's one part of the sound that will be missing. However, because the engine ports are not the same size and shape as the Lambo, different size and length pipes may need to be used. I had a set of cat backs on a 350z that made the cars sound very close to the Lambo. A V6 is half of the V12, it will work the same way. I've researched other sites with posts from the 90's, and they were saying that the V12 would never work in the Diablo kits. This was their way of thinking until someone ignored their advice and tried it. And guess what?... It worked!!! Don't ever give up on what you want because others either failed at their half hearted attempts or just talk negative without even trying. If you really want that Lambo sound, follow me, I'll find where it's hiding. TTT
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2008, 05:34:34 PM » |
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christoforo
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2008, 06:19:07 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
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msaby
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2008, 06:45:00 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Now you are begining to understand, you can't replica the sound through the entire power band. It may sound one way at one rpm level and totally different at another level.
Those of you who are talking exotic engines (Not BMW 12) you better have a lot of engineering knowledge, plenty of time oh and lots of cash. Once you step into that realm you are on your own. You will be fabricating everything. Exotic engines will need a adapter for the transaxle, swapping out an engine you may need a larger cooling system, using CC system you may need to have a chip burned it goes on and on. this doesn't only apply to drivetrain either. I am currently working an CC electronic steering system for my build which will alter steering effort based upon vehicle speed and steering wheel effort. The build required a different rack, then a different steering column then new joint, steering shafts, sensors and ton of time, you get the idea. Have any of you guys started your builds yet, or is this just shop talk? Those of you who insist you can duplicate the sound of a lambo V12 please post a recording when you achieve the correct sound for all to hear. Mike
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jntramey
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2008, 06:52:25 PM » |
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Mike,
Did you consider the Cadillac concourse componets? It has the exact same setup you just mentioned. My Father-in-laws '94 that he picked up for $3K has the adjustable rate steering that automatically changes the amount of effort required to turn the wheel at different speeds. The faster you go, the harder it is to turn. Prevents oversteer inputs from the driver.
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christoforo
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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2008, 06:58:07 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Now you are begining to understand, you can't replica the sound through the entire power band. It may sound one way at one rpm level and totally different at another level.
Those of you who are talking exotic engines (Not BMW 12) you better have a lot of engineering knowledge, plenty of time oh and lots of cash. Once you step into that realm you are on your own. You will be fabricating everything. Exotic engines will need a adapter for the transaxle, swapping out an engine you may need a larger cooling system, using CC system you may need to have a chip burned it goes on and on. this doesn't only apply to drivetrain either. I am currently working an CC electronic steering system for my build which will alter steering effort based upon vehicle speed and steering wheel effort. The build required a different rack, then a different steering column then new joint, steering shafts, sensors and ton of time, you get the idea. Have any of you guys started your builds yet, or is this just shop talk? Those of you who insist you can duplicate the sound of a lambo V12 please post a recording when you achieve the correct sound for all to hear. Mike i just want my car not to sound like a huge muscle car
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2008, 07:00:39 PM » |
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I don’t care about the sound of my engine but I did want something different. Thus the normally aspirated 3800-V6. I have added several go fast items that I wanted to experiment with on this engine. One set up was 6 Weber carburetors another (the current project) is a T04b turbo charger. Adding this particular equipment will provide 409 HP out of 3.8 liter engine (231 CU In) using 10.5 to 11 lbs of boost. A regular 355 has 365 – 385 depending on the year of manufacture out of a 3.5 liter engine. I have never considered the cost of good equipment into my build although those of you who know me will tell you that I do look for deals on the best equipment once a design idea is in play.
As the car runs today, it sounds great, gets about 33 mpg and needs no real shop time other than the modifications I am making to the engine as I play. At the end of the day, it is still a Fiero.
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jntramey
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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2008, 07:33:37 PM » |
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As long as mine sounds exotic, I don't really care how close to Ferrari it gets. I do care about the sound, not as much as the other sensory aspects, but the reason I'm building the car in the first place is I like the way it looks. I also like the way it sounds. I don't really care if it meets the all-out-race performance specs, as I don't drive like that anymore anyway. Never really did. I'm into driving a good looking car that sounds good and has good performance too. If the kid in the Z-28 wants to race stoplight to stoplight, I have NO problem letting him win, No contest. I usually just rev it up and pull away at a normal speed. Call it "past the mid-life crisis" stage, call it maturity, call it responsible, call it whatever you want, it just doesn't matter anyway. If it were not for the look/safety/and mechanical wear issues on the bearings, I'd fore-go the wide track stuff and just use wheel spacers as I don't do "burnouts", skids, etc. unless it's an unforeseen emergency. I guess my over the road trucker experience changed my attitude about driving. The last car I bought was a Cadillac sedan deville. I prefer comfort and looks.
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 07:37:56 PM by jntramey »
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2008, 07:42:44 PM » |
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jntramey: I had to smile. I feel the same way about trashing my car or racing someone. I simply like to build stuff. From Cars to Cottages it suits my personality just fine.
I guess I am just not in that big a hurry anymore.
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TOMMYTREETRUNK
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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2008, 12:19:42 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Why are limiting yourself to a Chevy V8? If you want to come as close as possible to the f car sound, explore all V8 options. well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Now you are begining to understand, you can't replica the sound through the entire power band. It may sound one way at one rpm level and totally different at another level.
Those of you who are talking exotic engines (Not BMW 12) you better have a lot of engineering knowledge, plenty of time oh and lots of cash. Once you step into that realm you are on your own. You will be fabricating everything. Exotic engines will need a adapter for the transaxle, swapping out an engine you may need a larger cooling system, using CC system you may need to have a chip burned it goes on and on. this doesn't only apply to drivetrain either. I am currently working an CC electronic steering system for my build which will alter steering effort based upon vehicle speed and steering wheel effort. The build required a different rack, then a different steering column then new joint, steering shafts, sensors and ton of time, you get the idea. Have any of you guys started your builds yet, or is this just shop talk?
Those of you who insist you can duplicate the sound of a lambo V12 please post a recording when you achieve the correct sound for all to hear.Mike This is the point where you step out on your own and be your own man. These reasons for not going this route sound like the things your parents would come up with to scare you from of moving out of their home at 18yrs old to start your own adult life. If you have what it takes to buy the kits, then don't sell yourself short on the sound if the sound makes a difference to you. Yes you may have to pay extra to accomplish this. You also have to pay extra for EXTREME's Murci kit compared to the G24 kit. And there seems to be quit a few people that are willing to do so... because it looks just like the real thing. To me, every part of the build counts towards the end results. And if it takes a little longer to complete it properly in my eyes, then it will just take longer. I haven't officially started the building of my kit because it's not going to be ready until sometime in Feb. 09. I've acquired to second position for the 12 AD-LP640 kits for 2009. However, I have been collecting some parts and research for the build. I truly believe that I can achieve the V12 roar of the Murci, and when I do I will definitely share that info with all that would like to hear it. No disrespect to the older or more experience member on this forum. But I believe with some of the younger members, building a kit isn't to show everybody "look what I've done." But more along the lines of, "look what I've got." Just my thoughts... TTT
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christoforo
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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2008, 12:23:05 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Why are limiting yourself to a Chevy V8? If you want to come as close as possible to the f car sound, explore all V8 options. cause that is what is in the car
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TOMMYTREETRUNK
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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2008, 12:32:42 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Why are limiting yourself to a Chevy V8? If you want to come as close as possible to the f car sound, explore all V8 options. cause that is what is in the car Then it's time for a transplant.
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christoforo
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« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2008, 02:31:02 PM » |
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ok so if i want a high reving exotic sounding v8 i need a Flate Plane Crank. where would i get one for a chevy 350 v8
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2008, 03:17:57 PM » |
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ok so if i want a high reving exotic sounding v8 i need a Flate Plane Crank. where would i get one for a chevy 350 v8
I saw one with the rods and pistons at the KitCar swap meet in the spring. I think it was about 11K or so. You still needed to get the camshaft for it. Some of the short track guys have them as well if you want to look there.
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jntramey
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« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2008, 04:33:11 PM » |
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Isn't that one of the reasons it has to to be tuned every three months or the engine tries to eat itself? I'd rather have reliability.
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The Kit Cars Forum
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