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Devanshj
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« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2008, 05:06:08 PM » |
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well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Why are limiting yourself to a Chevy V8? If you want to come as close as possible to the f car sound, explore all V8 options. well even if i have a chevy v8 with a ferrari catalytic converter and sport ferrari exhaust it would change the sound of the exhaust. but it would still idle like a chevy v8. if i floor the car on the highway then it should have a unique sound.
Now you are begining to understand, you can't replica the sound through the entire power band. It may sound one way at one rpm level and totally different at another level.
Those of you who are talking exotic engines (Not BMW 12) you better have a lot of engineering knowledge, plenty of time oh and lots of cash. Once you step into that realm you are on your own. You will be fabricating everything. Exotic engines will need a adapter for the transaxle, swapping out an engine you may need a larger cooling system, using CC system you may need to have a chip burned it goes on and on. this doesn't only apply to drivetrain either. I am currently working an CC electronic steering system for my build which will alter steering effort based upon vehicle speed and steering wheel effort. The build required a different rack, then a different steering column then new joint, steering shafts, sensors and ton of time, you get the idea. Have any of you guys started your builds yet, or is this just shop talk?
Those of you who insist you can duplicate the sound of a lambo V12 please post a recording when you achieve the correct sound for all to hear.Mike This is the point where you step out on your own and be your own man. These reasons for not going this route sound like the things your parents would come up with to scare you from of moving out of their home at 18yrs old to start your own adult life. If you have what it takes to buy the kits, then don't sell yourself short on the sound if the sound makes a difference to you. Yes you may have to pay extra to accomplish this. You also have to pay extra for EXTREME's Murci kit compared to the G24 kit. And there seems to be quit a few people that are willing to do so... because it looks just like the real thing. To me, every part of the build counts towards the end results. And if it takes a little longer to complete it properly in my eyes, then it will just take longer. I haven't officially started the building of my kit because it's not going to be ready until sometime in Feb. 09. I've acquired to second position for the 12 AD-LP640 kits for 2009. However, I have been collecting some parts and research for the build. I truly believe that I can achieve the V12 roar of the Murci, and when I do I will definitely share that info with all that would like to hear it. No disrespect to the older or more experience member on this forum. But I believe with some of the younger members, building a kit isn't to show everybody "look what I've done." But more along the lines of, "look what I've got." Just my thoughts... TTT I agree a 100% with TTT, the sounds is very very important in a it car, without that its a dead giveaway. why spend all the money perfecting the look when the sound isnt there? @TTT - What if one were to open up a bmw v12 and change the internals to lightweight forged compnents and changed the flywheel to to a lightweight one and couple the engine with original lambo headers and exhaust, would it produce an accurate or very close to accurate sound? |
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2008, 07:03:06 PM » |
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Isn't that one of the reasons it has to to be tuned every three months or the engine tries to eat itself?
I'd rather have reliability.
Not sure about that one. The purpose of a flat plane crank is basically to have two four cylinder engines running in the same block. But those engines get some abuse, so, if they need to rebuild it to the tune of 15K per quarter or 5k per month (60K per year) it must haul the mail eh! |
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The Kit Cars Forum
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« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2008, 07:03:06 PM » |
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msaby
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« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2008, 07:18:56 PM » |
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I don't mean to discourage anyone here but I have heard of doing an engine swap for performance, reliablity or if the engine is just plain worn out. To perform an engine swap based on the sound of the engine is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If I told you an electric blender sounded just like the real thing would you try and swap that in your vehicle? I am assuming all of the builders talking about unique engine designs and exhaust systems have some sort of automotive creditentals that they are basing their assumtions on, otherwise if you have to secure the services of an experiences engine builder you better have a lot of time and money. Machine work can run into the thousnds very quickly.
A replica will always be a replica no matter how perfect it looks and the look is what we are all trying to achieve. Wait until you finish your perfect builds and you have someone look under the vehicle after you told everyone its the real deal and announces it is a fiero. Some of the give aways, adapters if used, those funny looking fake rotors and calipers,control arms, parking brake caliper and cables, floor pan, fiero turn signal controls, no lambo etching on the glass, just to name a few. Can some of you guys post the current status of your builds I would really like to see what these perfect replicas look like.
The phrase " look what I got".......might be if you are unsuccessful "I told you so"
Good luck with your build,
Mike
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« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:22:21 PM by msaby »
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TOMMYTREETRUNK
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« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2008, 08:08:02 PM » |
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I don't mean to discourage anyone here but I have heard of doing an engine swap for performance, reliablity or if the engine is just plain worn out. To perform an engine swap based on the sound of the engine is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If I told you an electric blender sounded just like the real thing would you try and swap that in your vehicle? I am assuming all of the builders talking about unique engine designs and exhaust systems have some sort of automotive creditentals that they are basing their assumtions on, otherwise if you have to secure the services of an experiences engine builder you better have a lot of time and money. Machine work can run into the thousnds very quickly.
A replica will always be a replica no matter how perfect it looks and the look is what we are all trying to achieve. Wait until you finish your perfect builds and you have someone look under the vehicle after you told everyone its the real deal and announces it is a fiero. Some of the give aways, adapters if used, those funny looking fake rotors and calipers,control arms, parking brake caliper and cables, floor pan, fiero turn signal controls, no lambo etching on the glass, just to name a few. Can some of you guys post the current status of your builds I would really like to see what these perfect replicas look like.
The phrase " look what I got".......might be if you are unsuccessful "I told you so"
Good luck with your build,
Mike
There's a Chinese proverb that's something close this, "If you feel that something is impossible, don't interrupt someone else when they're doing it." Everything that I have said, I will do. Just because you think your abilities wont allow you to do something like this, doesn't mean I'll adapt that negative way of thinking. Before you or anyone else speak about what can't be done, put your best foot forward. If you come up short, publish your work for others to learn from. This way one day somebody will find a way to be successful at what you failed at. Isn't this one of the basic principles of parenting? Also, so many people make that same comment, "at the end of the day it's still only a fiero." I totally disagree with this. A fiero doesn't look, sound or performs the way most kits do. The fiero becomes a transformed piece of metal used for it's skelton only. It's no different than melting down the fiero chassis mold a new one. This process is called recycling.  TTT |
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2008, 08:34:00 PM » |
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The Inline-Four Engine Now things get complicated. Although it seems that a four cylinder engine is free of vibration, it is not. An inline four engine fires every 180° which means that always two pistons are in the same position and move in the same direction. Because of the symmetrical arrangement there is no end-to-end vibration as with the three cylinder engine (piston 1 and 4 plus 2 and 3 are pairs). Thre problem is the vertival movement. At first glance it seems that the forces generated by the first piston are cancelled by the second and the forces of the third are cancelled by the fourth. But that is not the case! As you can see in the picture, pistons which are moving up, are moving at different speeds than pistons that are moving down. So there are vibrations again which have to be cancelled by balancer shafts. The V8-Engine There are two types of V8s which differ by crankshaft. The V-angle is always 90°. The two types are called cross-plane (crank pins at a 90° angle) and flat-plane (crank pins at 180°). V8 engines have the advantage of not being in need of split crank pins in order to avoid vibrations between cylinder banks. With a cross-plane V8, however, the last cylinder is not in the same position as the first, so there is end-to-end vibration again. That can be solved by adding counterweights to the crankshaft which cancel the forced created by the pistons. That is possible only in a V-engine with a V-angle of 90° and without splitted crank pins. These counterweights, fitted to an inline engine, would move to the side when the piston moves up or down and therefore generate additional vibration. But in a 90° V-engine there are pistons on the same crank pin which move exactly into the opposite directions of the counterweights (because of the bank angle) and their forces can be cancelled. Cross-plane V8s are therefore running quite smooth but because of the heavier crankshaft they are not as revvy. Flat-plane V8 engines do not have those problems. They are also more responsive because of less rotational inertia. That increases maximum rpm and top-end power. In addition the crank case can be smaller which lowers the center of gravity. But why are the flat-plane engines used in sports cars only if there are so many advantages? That's because of the crankshaft itself, the disadvantage of the flat-plane type. As you can see, the arrangement of crank pins is identical to a four cylinder engine which means there are also vibrations, only stronger, as basically two inline-four engines are running simultaneously. In sports cars those vibrations are reduced by using very lightweight pistons and connecting rods. That is of course expensive and because ride quality isn't too important either, the rough characteristics (compared to a cross-plane) are tolerated. Because of the crankshaft, the sound of such an engine is the one of two four cylinder engines. A (typical american) cross-plane burbling cannot be achieved. In other words, pull out that Chevy V8 and toss it in the dumpster and put in a 4 banger with a nice header on it and a glass pack muffler. Here is the source of the information so you can look it up. http://www.e31.net/engines_e.html |
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« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:48:24 PM by FunnyWheels »
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2008, 09:01:28 PM » |
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More stuff
Crossplane
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The crossplane or cross-plane is a crankshaft design for V8 engines with a 90° angle between the cylinder banks.
The crossplane crankshaft has four crankpins, each offset at 90° from the adjacent crankpins. The crankpins are therefore in two planes crossed at 90°, hence the name crossplane. A crossplane crank may have up to five main bearings, and normally does, as well as large balancing weights. Crossplane V8 engines have uneven firing patterns within each cylinder bank, producing a distinctive burble in the exhaust note, but an even firing pattern overall.
The other design for a V8 crankshaft is the flatplane crankshaft, with all crankpins in the same plane and the only offset 180°. Early V8 engines, modern racing engines and some others used or use the flatplane crankshaft, which is similar to that used in a straight four or flat-four engine. Flatplane V8 engines may use any angle between the cylinder banks, with 60° and 90° the most common, however Ferrari uses 65°. They lack the V8 burble and the inherent mechanical balance of the crossplane design, but do not require the large crankshaft balancing weights. Modern flatplane designs often incorporate a balance shaft, which is not needed by the crossplane design.
Crossplane V8s tend to be of large capacity, such as 5 liters and above, because the complex crankshaft and its many balance weights make the engine relatively slow-responding (like a heavy flywheel). A large engine does not have to be "revved" as hard to produce the desired power. European flatplane V8s can be as small as 2.5 liters, because the lighter crankshaft - the big ends balance each other with minimal need for additional balance weights - allows them to be more free-revving.
The crossplane design was first proposed in 1915, and developed by Cadillac and Peerless, both of whom produced flatplane V8s before introducing the crossplane design. Cadillac introduced the first crossplane in 1923, with Peerless following in 1924.
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msaby
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« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2008, 06:21:28 AM » |
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Hey TTT, again I don't mean to discourge you. If you have it all figured out, I would love to hear your plan. May I ask again please post pic of your build? How may replicas have you built or owned? I am assuming you have a wealth of knowledge in the field of engine physics that must well surpasses mine. My build is listed in the link below feel free.... http://www.kitcentral.com/index.php?set_albumName=Msaby&name=gallery&include=view_album.phpMike |
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jntramey
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« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2008, 06:55:17 AM » |
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"the disadvantage of the flat-plane type. As you can see, the arrangement of crank pins is identical to a four cylinder engine which means there are also vibrations, only stronger...."Yep, that's what I thought.  You could build a flat plane Chevy V8, but get ready to spend thousands get it done (racing pistons, rods, etc., etc.) and then pull the engine every 3 mos. to tighten everything back down, and rebuild it every year or 2.  Come to think of it, that's what Ferrari does every 3 mos., or they void your warranty.
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« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 10:57:44 AM by jntramey »
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Faker
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« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2008, 12:40:01 AM » |
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2008, 10:49:08 AM » |
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I think it sounds just like a Ferrari. I wouldn't mind it in my car. Those Honda engines haul. Dave |
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 10:00:35 PM by FunnyWheels »
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Greenmeansgo
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« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2008, 04:58:48 PM » |
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Just so you know when the s2000 came out it wone the award for the most horse power per cylinder ever achieved n/a
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herbie65
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« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2008, 03:29:26 AM » |
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I think it sounds just like a Ferrari. I wouldn't mind it in my car. Those Honda engines haul. Dave Pity the guy isn't able to drive it..... |
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christoforo
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« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2008, 11:12:42 AM » |
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I think it sounds just like a Ferrari. I wouldn't mind it in my car. Those Honda engines haul. Dave if your talking about a road ferrari your way off |
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FunnyWheels
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« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2008, 08:56:51 PM » |
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I think it sounds just like a Ferrari. I wouldn't mind it in my car. Those Honda engines haul. Dave if your talking about a road ferrari your way off I think is does sound like a road Ferrari. It sounds as good as my neighbors 430. This might be the best you can do for the sound. |
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The Kit Cars Forum
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